Showing posts with label devil. Show all posts
Showing posts with label devil. Show all posts

Artworks by Christians, around 1400 - 1600 portraying images of Satan, Demons, werewolves and witches.

It was believed that people by the aid of the Devil could assume any shape they wished. Witches and wizards were changed into wolves, dogs, cats and serpents.

Within two years, between 1598 and 1600, in one district of France, the district of Jura, more than six hundred men and women were tried and convicted before one judge of having changed themselves into wolves, and all were put to death.

This is only one instance. There were thousands.

— Robert Ingersoll, “The Devil”

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Pictures of Demons and Satan

View Photographs which may contain demons and an outline of Satan. Includes comments by Skeptics.

Photographs of Satan and Demons

Real Pictures - Decide for Yourself

Loook very closely for the Seraphims

Look very closely… it is believed that a Seraphimʼs shadow (An Angel) was caught in this picture - inside a church!

Look very closely at the area of the picture, where the yellow flowers are.

It is believed that the outline of Satan appeared in this picture when it was taken.

Photograph of what is believed to be a Desert Demon as discussed in the book of Enoch.

Another picture of what may very well be a Desert Demon, in the 21st Century!

If you study this picture, notice the shadows falling on land — it is believed that this may be a Cherubim (An Angel).

Sharon

I am very excited about these five photographs that Iʼve obtained.

I wanted to share them with ANY Christians that might be around, to confirm the faith.
The skeptics no longer have an argument that will hold water.
As they say, a picture is worth 1000 words.

The one photograph is believed to contain an outline of Satan in it, this picture is astounding. I donʼt know what Paranormal researchers will think about it, but Iʼm overwhelmed with this evidence!


From: “BDK”

LOL, you need to see a doctor, an eye doctor at least, but I doubt heʼs the right kind of doctor for you…
Donʼt you have some pills to take or something??

BDK


From: “John Baker”

Itʼs quite obvious thereʼs nothing unusual in the photographs, but thatʼs no doubt the entire point.
Sharon has a unique sense of humor. [G]


From: “Dangorn”

I think I saw Elvis in one of those pictures!


*
Send them to Ed Conrad.

earle
*

Yeah, Ed probably has petrified angel toenails for sale on ebay.

Liam


From: “johac”
I saw Bigfoot! And a chupacabra!

From: “Mylon”

A chupacabra? Pfft, I saw 20!


From: “sharon”

The problem is you must take things as these on Faith!
It only takes faith… Go back, and just believe.


From: “quibbler”

Then why have photographs? All but the first photo had nothing and the first photo appears to have been quite obviously doctored to produce some vague, blurry smudges. None of that inspires much faith, Iʼm afraid.


From: “Wolf333”

<begin Foghorn Leghorn mode>

Itʼs a joke, son…

<end Foghorn Leghorn mode>


From: “sharon”

Only some dry sarcasm about Christians. *smile*

A couple years ago on the world news, they featured a story about a volcano that was erupting overseas, and all the damage it had caused — the newscaster made the comment “The Natives believe a demon lives inside the mountain.” An angry demon makes the mountain roar and move. (To them, it is completely realistic to believe, without science. Besides hearing this explanation all their life.)

If you tell a Christian that a demon lives inside a mountain, they will mark it off as superstitious nonsense… even *heathen* nonsense. Yet they go on themselves acknowledging their own demons and devils, even to this day. To deny demons, they will think you are going to hell, for denying what is written in the Bible. The Bible says there is a Satan and demons, and therefore it is blaspheme to deny a belief in them. Will they ever see the connection between superstitious natives, and their own beliefs?

Yes, the photos I gave had nothing unusual in them — nothing is there. Thatʼs the point. NOTHING is there. The faithful fundamentalist Christians have hundreds of thousands of stories to tell about how Satan is running the world, and demons are destroying society… and where are these demons?

Where is one photograph of a demon? Nobody has yet succeeded to point out so much as one demon in my entire life… but some of the people at the local churches would hysterically instruct to anoint the windows and doors with oil — and offering up prayers to keep the evil spirits out. I wish some Christian would understand my point — when theyʼre told “This is a photo of a demon”, and they look and seeing nothing — that it sink in, thereʼs nothing there. They have never seen these so-called evil spirits they fervently claim to be real… if they could only comprehend demons are completely mythological leftovers, from very primitive times.

I feel pity on Christians who believe in such superstitions. There is ONLY one positive thing, that being if you believe in devils and demons, it makes Blattyʼs “The Exorcist” a whole lot more interesting. But Christians cannot criticize anyone as ignorant, or superstitious for believing an “angry demon” makes volcanoes erupt.

Later on it was the early christians who blamed volcanoes on the devil. They turned Vulcan into a demon, and his angry voice, coming from the smoking mountain, was trying to drown out the moans and screams of torment of all the lost souls.


Together through the mist of myth, the richness of legend, and the dawn of understanding.

At the start it was to please and appease the gods.

  1. An azrec priest, armed with a knife, the handle of gold and platinum, slaughters captives on the peak of a rumbling mountain.

  2. A young girl, colorfully dressed, bright flowers in her hair, is led by a village chief up a smoking mountain. At the top, trembling, she steps over the edge and for the moment the god is satisfied.

    In other parts of the world:

    1. It was to explain what was believed to be smoke and fire, and to give some understanding to the awful noise. So was born Vulcan, his forges, and his chief helpers-cyclops.
    2. In Indonesia it was the great snake Hontobago. When he moved his body the earth shook, fire flew from the mountains, and even the gods were afraid.
    3. Later on it was the early christians who blamed volcanoes on the devil. They turned Vulcan into a demon, and his angry voice, coming from the smoking mountain, was trying to drown out the moans and screams of torment of all the lost souls.
    4. In the middle ages it was largely believed that the Icelandic volcano Hekla was the gateway to hell, and the hissing chunks thrown out of it were the souls of the damned.
    5. There were those, however, who viewed volcanoes in a different way. Mark Twain was fond of saying “the smell of sulfur is strong, but not unpleasant for a sinner.”

From: “Glenn (Christian Mystic)”

I see only blurry pictures


From: “sharon”

you are declared sane.


From: “Glenn (Christian Mystic)”

Thanx, I needed that :=}


SmileJeff: I looked really hard, but I donʼt see the outline of the Talking Snake anywhere in the picture. Perhaps he is just magically blinding me and keeping me from seeing the glory of his outline, though. After all, if itʼs reasonable to believe that a talking animal is blinding me (and most of the rest of the world) from seeing the alleged TRUTH of the Fabulous Magical Myth of Kryasst, perhaps itʼs not too much of a stretch to believe that he could magically blind me from seeing his outline in a picture. Amen? Glory!

No, I Don't Believe in a Personal Devil or a Personal Savior

I think if there are evil spirits, but men like Hitler probably taught them a thing or two about being evil. Of course if there ARE evil spirits, the best way to combat them is not with constant prayer and seeing “da deyvil” in everything, that just invites them in, always being obsessed with them I was more full of fear as a Christian than now, more obsessed. Personal Devil or a Personal Savior Today I believe that the best way to combat “evil” is simply to try and seek the best in everyone, in all books, in all manner of things. Demons or whatever you wish to call them, probably HATE simple things like honest handshakes and honest smiles and really detest people who can simply examine the universe with a quiet mind. If you are comfortable with yourself alone in a dark room, simply listening to your own breathing, then the devilʼs got nothing on you. He has no fear to hang on to. Demons are probably like animals that sense fear and that gives them strength. Or maybe most demons are busy taunting other demons to have much time to bother with humanity as much as some people claim they do. I think Godʼs cadre of diseases and parasites and hunger and repetitious labor, hard labor, boring labor, accidents, miscommunications, unrequited love, dashed hopes, and simply the ability to fear things that havenʼt happened yet, along with numerous painful natural phenomena, work havoc quite well without having to invoke “THE devil” or “demons” to explain “evil” in the world.

But wait, thereʼs more, if you order now weʼll include with our explanation the following…

Satan

But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?
- Mark Twain, Autobiography


I have no special regard for Satan; but I can at least claim that I have no prejudice against him. It may even be that I lean a little his way, on account of his not having a fair show. All religions issue Bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. We have none but the evidence for the prosecution, and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French.
- Mark Twain


We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents. A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race, and political head of the whole of it, must be granted the possession of executive abilities of the loftiest order. Not only that, but Satan hasnʼt a single salaried helper, while the Opposition employs a million.
- Mark Twain


Another “Satan seller” is Dr. Rebecca Brown. Her tales of “Satanic cult abuse” (He Came To Set The Captives Free) were published by Jack Chick, who specializes in publishing mini-comic books portraying demons and hellfire. “Dr. Rebecca Brown” was originally “an Indiana physician named Ruth Bailey, who had her license removed by the Medical Licensing Board of Indiana for a number of reasons. Among the boardʼs seventeen findings are: Bailey knowingly misdiagnosed serious illnesses, including brain tumors and leukemia, as ‘caused by demons, devils, and other evil spirits;’ she told her patients that doctors at Ball Memorial Hospital and St. Johnʼs Medical Center were ‘demons, devils, and other evil spirits’ themselves; and she falsified patient charts and hospital records. The boardʼs report states: ‘Dr. Bailey also addicted numerous patients to controlled substances which required them to suffer withdrawal and undergo detoxification, and that she self-medicated herself with non-therapeutic amounts of Demerol which she injected on an hourly basis.’ A psychiatrist appointed by the board to diagnose Bailey described her as ‘suffering from acute personality disorders including demonic delusions and/or paranoid schizophrenia.’ Refusing to appear before the board, Bailey moved to California, changed her name to Rebecca Brown, and began working with Jack Chick.” (David Alexander, “Giving the Devil More Than His Due: For Occult Crime ‘Experts’ and the Media, Anti-Satanist Hysteria Has Become A Growth Industry,” The Humanist, March/April 1990) Jack Chick recently stopped publishing Brownʼs books, “We used to publish her books. Then the Lord told us he didnʼt want us to put ʻem out anymore.” (Jack Chick, speaking to Dwayne Walker in 1997)

Even the editors of Christianity Today praised a book in which well-documented research showed that the problem with the “Satanic panic” of the 1980s was that “rumor was prevailing over truth, and people, particularly Christians, are too believing.” The Christian book reviewer cited a case in a megachurch in Chicago where one man was “disfellowshipped” because a female in the congregation “freaked out” whenever she saw him on Sunday mornings, claiming he was a “Satanic cult leader” who had “ritually abused her.” “The man was not allowed to face his accuser, nor would they discuss with the man any specific dates or events of alleged crimes. Though the man denied the allegations, and the elders and pastor of the church saw no evidence of sin in the manʼs life, they felt compelled to protect the accuser.” The review continued, “To date there has been no investigation that has substantiated the claims of alleged Satanic abuse survivors. Recovered ‘memories’ are the only evidence any specialist will offer...Well-meaning but uncritical therapists have validated, if not helped to construct, vile fantasies that foment a terror of Satan rather than confidence in God...In periods of rising concern over actual child abuse and sexual immorality the historical tendency has been to find scapegoats for social ills. A despised segment of society is depicted as the perpetrator of a villainous conspiracy. Romans accused the early Christians of wearing black robes, secretly meeting in caves, and performing animal and baby mutilation. In the Middle Ages, the scapegoat was the Jews. In America of the 1830s and 40s, kidnapping and murder of children were said to be the work of the Catholics. A best-selling book of the time, The Awful Disclosures of Maria Monk, chronicled the atrocities committed by priests and nuns at a particular convent. That account sparked myriad copycat claims by other young women.” (Susan Bergman, “Rumors from Hell,” Christianity Today, Vol. 38, No. 3, March, 1994 - a review of Jeffrey S. Victorʼs, Satanic Panic)

The modern “Satanic cult hysteria” only began in 1981 with the publication of the best-seller, Michelle Remembers. “Prior to 1981 there were no reports of ‘satanic-cult torture and murder.’ We have none on record, and I challenge you to find any in the psychiatric or scientific literature.” So says F.B.I. Special Agent Kenneth Lanning (who has a masterʼs degree in behavioral science and whose published work on the sexual victimization of children is well-known in the law-enforcement and psychology fields). (Interestingly enough, the article featuring Lanningʼs statement appeared in Penthouse magazine, while the statements directly preceding Lanningʼs appeared in Christianity Today. Itʼs nice to know that Christians and secularists, can agree on some matters!)

There are indeed practicing “Satanists” in America, but the F.B.I. has been studying ritual criminal behavior for many years and has not found evidence of any organized “satanic menace.” According to Lanning, “I started out believing this stuff [about ritual murders by organized satanic-cults]. I mean, I had been dealing with bizarre crimes for many years and I knew from experience that almost anything is possible...But I canʼt find one documented case [of satanic-cult victimization], and Iʼve been looking for seven years or more. I personally have investigated some 300 cases - and there is not a shred of evidence of a crime.” He mentioned how psychiatric patients [and/or people who undergo hypnosis to “recover memories”] are the ones claiming such crimes took place, but when the alleged crime scene is investigated there is never a trace of blood or bone, though the F.B.I. has many means to detect even the faintest traces of splashed blood, and whole lawns and farm fields have been dug up in search of bones and bone fragments though none were found.

Satan-mongers inflate statistics, claiming that “according to the F.B.I., two million children are missing each year.” “Itʼs wrong,” said Lanning. The Justice Department (Juvenile Justice Bulletin, January 1989) reported that between 52 and 58 children were kidnapped and murdered by non-family members in 1988. The “Cult Crime Network” claims that “50,000 human sacrifices” are being performed each year by “satanic cults.” But there are only 20,000 murders, total in the U.S. each year, and that figure accounts for all the gang, drug, domestic, and “regular” murders in the country.

People do commit strange crimes. Some may even be committing human sacrifice in the name of Satan. But there is absolutely no evidence of any widespread, organized satanic movement. At one conference on satanism in America in 1989 the same photo of a boy whose death was “linked to satanism” was dragged out by just about everyone interviewed by a reporter covering the conference, implying that was the one and only corpse in the U.S. that could be traced to satanic-cult activity, and it was the result of an isolated incident that could not be connected in any way with an organized group.

As Lanning sums things up, “The fact is that more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus, and Muhammad than has ever been committed in the name of Satan.”
- Skip Church


Devils Devils Everywhere, So Throw A Pot Of Ink!

The Father of Protestant Christianity, Martin Luther, saw “Satan” lurking everywhere and once boasted about throwing an inkpot at old Split-foot himself. (The following quotations, unless otherwise stated, are from Table Talk, a volume in The Collected Works of Martin Luther):

Snakes and monkeys are subjected to the demon more than other animals. Satan lives in them and possesses them. He uses them to deceive men and to injure them.

In my country, upon a mountain called Polterberg, there is a pool. If one throws a stone into it, instantly a storm arises and the whole surrounding countryside is overwhelmed by it. This lake is full of demons; Satan holds them captive there.

Demons are in woods, in waters, in wildernesses, and in dark pooly places ready to hurt and prejudice people; some are also in thick black clouds, which cause hail, lightning and thunder, and poison the air, the pastures and grounds.

How often have not the demons called “Nix,” drawn women and girls into the water, and there had commerce with them, With fearful consequences.

I myself saw and touched at Dessay, a child which had no human parents, but had proceeded from the Devil. He was twelve years old, and, in outward form, exactly resembled ordinary children.

A large number of deaf, crippled and blind people are afflicted solely through the malice of the demon. And one must in no wise doubt that plagues, fevers and every sort of evil come from him.

Our bodies are always exposed to the attacks of Satan. The maladies I suffer are not natural, but Devilʼs spells.

As for the demented, I hold it certain that all beings deprived of reason are thus afflicted only by the Devil.

Satan produces all the maladies which afflict mankind for he is the prince of death.

(Who needs modern medicine, sanitation, health, and city planning practices? According to Luther we just need more exorcists to heal “all the maladies which afflict mankind.” On the other hand, even the “apple of Godʼs eye,” the ancient Hebrews, did not enjoy unparalleled good health to judge by the lengthy number of illnesses mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy. Add to that Luther and Calvinʼs own devilishly recurring bowel problems. Dare I suggest that the early invention of Ex-lax and Pepto-bismol might have taken the edge off of some of the Reformationʼs more spitefully inspired fears? - Skip)

When I was a child there were many witches, and they bewitched both cattle and men, especially children. (Luther, Commentary on Galatians)

I would have no compassion on a witch; I would burn them all. (Luther, Table Talk)

The heathen writes that the Comet may arise from natural causes; but God creates not one that does not foretoken a sure calamity. (Luther, Advent Sermon)

(For further quotations like those above, see Heiko Oberman, Luther: Man Between God and the Devil)


Some people believe in the Devil. So do I, in a way. He could be nothing more than one of Godʼs staff members, the one who on Judgment Day will take the fall for war, famine, tooth decay, etc. (In fact, “Armageddon” is probably Aramaic for “reshuffling the cabinet.”) He could be just random badness, the absence of goodness: evil doesnʼt have to unionize to be effective. I just do not believe that old Splitfoot has a hot line to everyoneʼs id and makes us go all steamy with evil thoughts when the fancy strikes him.

- James Lileks, “The Devil, You Say,” Fresh Lies)


May The Higher Power Win

I cannot find Satan or Him
In this desolate heart.
Nor have I found a concrete way
To tell the two apart.

Through the myths, I hear the legends.
Through the songs I hear the praise.
Through “Glory God” and “Satan Rules” -
I still hear but one phrase.

Have mercy on my empty soul,
Whoever bids the lot.
And may the Higher Power win,
If itʼs a soul I got.

- Norbert Thiemann

Christianity being proved ‘true’ by the persecution of Christians

“This makes me think that Christianity is even more true as persecution is expected for Christians and this is yet more evidence as verifying its truth.”
Christianity being proved 'true' by the persecution of Christians

Human beings have “suffered” at each otherʼs hands for as long as human beings have had hands. “Suffering” for almost any conceivable reason, including “suffering for the Gospel,” is therefore not unique. Throughout history and in fields of human endeavor as diverse as religion, politics, science, art, and education, great minds have suffered at the hands of little minds; great hearts and souls have suffered at the hands of the heartless and the soulless; obstinate hearts, minds and souls have suffered at the hands of equally obstinate hearts, minds and souls. Those inflicting the suffering often thought they were “right” to do so. And those experiencing it took succor in believing that their faith, or ideas, or actions, were “right.”

Speaking of non-Christians who have suffered: Jews have suffered for over a thousand years at the hands of Babylonians,Greeks, Romans, Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox Christians, Moslems, and Germans. Which reminds me of the Jewish story of a rabbi facing the Inquisition, who was asked to deny his faith. He asked for time to think it over. The next morning he said, “I will not become a Catholic, but I have a last request - before Iʼm burnt at the stake my tongue should be cut out for not replying at once. To such a question ‘No!’ was the only answer.”

Christian antisemitism has been the cause of much Jewish suffering over the past 1900 years. And, like the modern day disavowal of the importance of pro-slavery Biblical passages, most of todayʼs Christians disavow the importance of anti-Jewish New Testament passages, which is certainly an improvement over the past. Still, neither the antisemitic passages, nor the pro-slavery passages, have been erased from the Bible, and some people continue to find such passages “divinely inspired.” According to the author of Antisemitism in the New Testament, “Nearly every book in the New Testament expresses slander and contempt for Jews. Most Christians have maintained that the New Testament is not anti-Jewish but that antisemitism arose as a result of the misunderstanding of it. Examination of the contents of the New Testament does not support this claim.”

And what about the religion known as “Bahaism?” It began when the Persian holy man, Ali Muhammad (1819-1850) set out to reform Islam and bring people back to the worship of a purely spiritual God (not unlike how Jesus set out to reform the Judaism of his day). His movement caused much religious ferment. This led to his execution in 1850 by order of the Shahʼs chief minister and at the instigation of Muslim clerics who saw his movement as a threat to orthodox Islam. Besides Ali Muhammad, 20,000 of his followers were martyred for their beliefs. Yet the “Bahai” religion survived, and it has communities in 205 countries.”

The early Mormons were persecuted by the “orthodox” Christian majority, and the founder of Mormonism was killed by a mob. Yet that religion continues to do quite well.

And what about agnostics, atheists, “heretical” Christians and “heretical” Muslims, all of whom have suffered at the hands of “orthodox” Christians and “orthodox” Muslims for daring to speak and publish their “blasphemous” or “heretical” ideas? Christians and Muslims have publicly burnt the books of their critics, so that even today, the words of Christianityʼs earliest critics only survive in the form of excerpts in the works of their Christian opponents. In colonial America, there were laws that made “blasphemy” a crime punishable by death. Even up till the early 1900s, the authors of “blasphemous” literature in Great Britain and America could be put on trial, fined, and/or imprisoned for their “crime.” Some Muslims still view “blasphemy and heresy” as crimes deserving the death penalty.

As I said above, human beings have “suffered” at each otherʼs hands for as long as human beings have had hands. “Suffering” for almost any conceivable reason and belief is therefore not unique.

Moreover, the blood of the martyrs did nothing to keep Islam from taking over North Africa, a major Christian stronghold in Africa, out of which Augustine and Ambrose and Origin and other church fathers, bishops, and leaders dominated.

Nor did those Christians martyred in Japan keep the Buddhist religion from remaining dominant. You see, the blood of martyrs is not always the seed of the church. Rival religions and political systems can overpower Christianity. In fact, Islamʼs rise was swifter than Christianityʼs. And so was communismʼs. And after the fall of communism as a political system, it has still left behind billions of agnostics and atheists.

Persecution and Religious Bigotry

Kevin: Ed, The quotes of Jesus you cited do not establish that Jesus told his followers to persecute anyone. They show that Jesus himself made judgments about certain people.

Persecution and Religious Bigotry

Ed: You originally said that Jesus was just judging their “teaching” (sic), but now you admit he was judging the people themselves. Well, thatʼs a step toward reality.

Now consider why the words of the Bible have led to so much persecution over so long a period of time, and why Christianity (just as equally if not more-so than all other other religious or political movements with absolutistic teachings) has waded in blood, slavery and bigotry for two thousand years. (Compare the far fewer wars that Buddhists have fought over their religion. In fact, there as a wise Buddhist king who reigned in India and brought peace to rival religious sects, but making laws of sane tolerance, during the same time when Europeans were suffering the Inquisition, Calvinʼs insufferable laws and persecutions in Geneva, Lutherʼs anti-Jewish venom and anti-Catholic venom and anti-peasant venom, and anti-anyone-who-disagreed-with-the-Apostleʼs-Creed venom—since Luther signed a paper demanding the death penalty for anyone who did not accede to the Apostleʼs Creed, and when Catholic and Protestant Christian nations were engaged in a Thirty Years War)

Indeed, there is no evidence that Christianity today would Be a “world religion” unless it HAD taken control of the reigns of government and (one sect of Christians, the Catholic one) instituted itself as the supreme religion by means of force (outlawing paganism and all rival Christian sects), accommodation (to pagan festivals and ideas), and bribery (the first Christian Roman Emperor spent lots of money, offering a gold coin and a robe to “converts” or at least to get pagans to outwardly acknowledge Christianity). [See the historian William Ramsayʼs book Christianity And Paganism In The Fourth To Eighth Centuries]

Furthermore, it is because of the absolutistic demands made in the Bible, linked with hellish fear for society as a whole, and fear for the souls of Christian kids (if “non-Biblical beliefs” ever “got loose”) that drives people and societies over the edge. Absolutistic fears drive the engines of bigotry and persecution. And thereʼs also the Bibleʼs judgmentalism. For all that Jesus SAYS about “not judging,” he does a helluva lot of it himself, and weʼre supposed to be like Jesus, (especially when the “Holy Spirit” moves us).

One might also consider the words of the Bible in which God commands the destruction of the worship places of rival religions (which the first Christian Emperor made into a command to destroy non-Christian temples, art and literature), or biblical commands to execute those who believed differently or who blasphemed the God of the Bible. Even in the N.T., God strikes Anais and Saphiris dead because they held back some money from the common church fund. (By the way, that story was one that C. S. Lewis found unbelievably reprehensible, along with the alleged city-wide slaughters and treacheries of Joshua, neither of which Lewis believed to be true history nor attributable to a moral Beingʼs just commands.)


Kevin: I concede that if we assume that Jesus is not God, then this seems inconsistent. But if he is, then it is entirely within his prerogative to do things himself that are not the prerogative of his followers.

Ed: Like telling Christians to “love their enemies,” while God gets to Damn his for all eternity. But my point is not what individual Christians do or how they shall act. Letʼs assume that on an individual basis they act like saints (they do Not all act like saints of course, far from it, as history shows, but rather many have acted more like devils). Still the question remains how should a Society act? What laws should IT make? Do you think society would work better if all thieves and murderers went free? Forgive and love all your enemies? Every last one in all cases? All they have to do is repent? (And how do you know their act of repentance is genuine or not?) Is that your proposed answer to the question of what laws society should institute? Well Luther and Calvin proposed that the answer was this…

It was the duty of individual Christians to love their neighbors and enemies in so far as the case may be non-religious personal affronts, but when the neighbors become blasphemers and affronted God or his holy Book, then it is the duty of each Christian to serve God rather than man, and not accept such blasphemy, and it is likewise the duty of civil magistrates to do their duty and follow Godʼs laws in the O.T. when it comes to blasphemy, in order to preserve society, and keep it from being judged by God for being too lax. This is also the view of Missouri Synod Lutherans and Conservative Reformed Churches, and the Reconstructionist Christian movement. Go argue with THEM is you want, or read chapter two of Leaving The Fold, and learn the exact Scripture verses that Luther and Calvin used and what argument they made, based on the Bible. If you think Luther and Calvin were wrong, argue with THEM and with fellow living Christians. Iʼm not making this stuff up. God to the Chalcedon Report webpage, argue with those Reconstructionists. Tell them how wrong they are. Go ahead, and get their Scriptural replies in return. If you can make some converts out of them, I for one will bless you. Reconstructionism is even being funded by some Christian millionaires who are trying to elect Reconstructionists to American government posts, like in California. I have an article on that I can send you.


Ed: Not to forget the parable about cutting off oneʼs offending hand lest you go to hell with both hands, which has inspired some to fear hell so much that they cut off their own hand

Kevin: I suspect that Jesus was speaking in hyperbole here, or else he would have, for example, told John to cut out his own tongue for speaking overly harshly about some people.

Ed: Of course he was speaking in hyperbole. The point is that it is such strong hyperbole it has inspired people “cutting things off” (like hands and penises in the case of Origin, and Skoptsie Russian Christians and in various isolated cases since then), and “cutting off” relatives and friends, etc. Itʼs the fear of eternal hell that this hyperbole is emphasizing, and fear as I said drives people crazy. Fear is the mind killer as the author of Dune once put it. If God inspired the Bible then he must have known the power of hyperbole and its effects, and foreseen the disasters that lay in wait after composing such a fear-based verse. Of course, such talk was common in the apocalyptic days of first century Palestine. Just compare the books of Enoch (which even the author of Revelation copied from), or passages in the Dead Sea Scrolls (another apocalyptic group awaiting the end of the world). The soon end of the world was the Reason why you had to save your own soul and avoid hell at all costs by acting so completely nice to even your enemies, and turning the other cheek, because otherwise you would be cast into the fire after the Son of Manʼs soon arrival. In other words, Jesusʼ perfectionistic teachings are based on the premise that the world was soon going to be judged, and we shouldnʼt judge but wait for God to soon do so, and we should keep ourselves as pure as possible because the final judgment was near.


Ed: as well as figuratively cutting off their own relatives from their family, all because they Jesus said so. Not to mention Jesusʼ teachings that he has come to bring fire to the earth and how he wished it was already kindled, along with the teaching that every branch that does not bring forth fruit shall be cast into the flames, and his teachings about families hating one another and coming to set a father against his own children, and vice versa.

Kevin: I think these types of things can be a result of families being divided over Jesus; not that this is Godʼs preference.

Ed: Of course families were divided over “Jesus.” Jesus is portrayed in the synoptic Gospels as an apocalyptic prophet expecting to initiate what is called “the tribulation” in his lifetime. As in verses in which Jesus said, “I have come to set father against son, mother against daughter, etc.” and, “I have come to cast fire on the earth.”

“Think not that I am come to send peace; I came not to send peace but a sword.” “He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.”

“But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” (spoken in a parable in Lk.) “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth…and men gather them into the fire, and they are burned.” (a verse in John cited by the Inquisition) Jesus looked at the Pharisees “with anger” Mk. 3:5, called them blind fools and sons of vipers and sons of the devil, and called his generation an evil and adulterous one (as all of todayʼs apocalyptic prophets call our own generation), and said that certain towns of his day deserved and would receive greater judgment than Sodom. And in one spectacular curse, Jesus says, “Depart from me ye accursed into the hellfire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Need I discuss the self-fulfilling nature of how the divisive apocalyptic categorizations that Jesus employed also created centuries of human strife?


Ed: And Jesusʼ teaching found only in the Gospel of John in which Jesus speaks condemnations on the whole Jewish people rather than just the clergy, declaring numerous times “the Jews” this, and “the Jews” that.

Kevin: Letʼs have a little context though. The apostles were all Jews. This leads me to think that Jesus was talking about a group in general, not about each and every member of the group, else the Twelve should have packed it in right then. I think he was saying that a personʼs identity as Jew would not cut it; this idea is hardly unique to John.

Ed: This idea of blackening a whole “peopleʼs identity” (as you admit) happens to be the very essence of bigotry.


Ed: Of course, one may argue about the “analyses” of these and other verses. But if you think Jesusʼ message was simply one of “love, love, love,” then you havenʼt read everything Jesus said and did, including his using a whip of cords in his Temple tantrum.

Kevin: I dodnʼt say that Jesusʼ message was “love love love” and nothing else. Clearly he spoke of judgment too. Just because the idea is distasteful it doesnʼt mean itʼs untrue.

Ed: “Distasteful?” No, itʼs reprehensible, especially in the fearful effects it has produced in the human psyche. It was C.S. Lewis who once admitted in a letter (written near the end of Lewisʼ life) to his universalistic friend, Dom Bede Griffiths (who hosted a Christian-Hindu ashram in India): “Even more disturbing as you say, is the ghastly record of Christian persecution. It had begun in Our Lordʼs time - ‘Ye know not what spirit ye are of” (John of all people!) I think we must fully face the fact that when Christianity does not make a man very much better, it makes him very much worse…Conversion may make of one who was, if no better, no worse than an animal, something like a devil.”


Ed: Neither have you considered the dilemmas faced once Christianity became a nationwide power instead of merely a minority of individual Christians. Once “Christian” governors and governments arose, they had to decide what laws to make, and they had to use their own “analytical” judgment to formulate laws based on “the Bible.”

Kevin: I too would place the word “Christian” in quotes in this context. Indeed, how could people who profess to follow the one who said “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were then my servants would fight” proceed to rule tyrannical regimes? Only with a great deal of rationalization.

Ed: The fact that you canʼt imagine “how they could” strikes me as the most naive answer imaginable. You havenʼt considered the psychological effects that all the apocalyptic preaching and raving in the N.T., and pictures of a “jealous” God as portrayed by jealous men in the O.T., has had on humanity? Page after page the Bible depicts God as a mass murderer, and in the N.T. as inventing an eternal hell and judging everyone and “casting” them out, and you say, “Gee, how could anyone ever get the idea that the Bible is about maintaining the reign of a tyrannical king, kingship, or government?”


Ed: Well, you canʼt make laws out of the N.T. because it doesnʼt deal with them. Only the O.T. contains inspired laws for a “nation,” such as killing blasphemers and stoning anyone who threatens the life of your child (how much more a threat is it to teach heresies that threaten the Eternal Life of a personʼs child?) Hence, Christians made laws condemning and Persecuting And Punishing/Executing non-Christians. Read Luther and Calvin for the Scriptural justifications of such laws, or read chapter two of Leaving The Fold in which I cite Luther and Calvinʼs Scriptural justifications for such laws.

Kevin: These laws were given to a specific people in specific circumstances, and misappropriated by an imperialistic church trying to legitimize the acquisition of wealth and power. Contrast this with, say, the Celtic church, whose humility, detachment from wealth and power, and self-sacrifice to scholarship and missionary activity shamed the “servant of the servants of God” enthroned in Rome, whose worldview was adopted by some of the reformers later on (specifically, re: church and state).

Ed: So, instead of whining about how the Bibleʼs been “misappropriated” (sic), why not tell me exactly HOW do you set up laws for a kingdom in THIS world based on the Bible? Which laws do you make and enforce, and WHY those and not others? Huh?

Glad to hear you align yourself with Celtic Christianity rather than some megalomaniac Catholic church hierarchy. At least your heart is in the right place, though I believe the heart of a person like ou would also be in the right place even if you werenʼt a Christian, but a devout Buddhist or Taoist or Confucian, or even charitable atheist.

Of course, since you praised Celtic Christianity so highly, I can almost hear you adding that the Irish “saved” civilization, like the claim made in the book of the same title. But of course, one has to wonder how civilization got into such trouble that it needed “saving” after Christians have been ruling it for a thousand years prior to the Irish having to “save” it. For instance, the rise of Christendom a thousand years earlier, in the Roman world, led to the burning of the central pagan portion of the library of Alexandria (with the bishopʼs approval), and led to the library falling into a state of disrepair and disuse until some Moslems came around and burned down what little was left, and how Christians burned the books of Greek and Roman Christian critics, killed pagan philosophers and mathematicians like Hypatia in the street, and replaced the pursuit of pagan learning and scholarship and mathematics and politics with vast treatises on the dangers of religious heresy, the dangers of not maintaining oneʼs virginity, and signs of Jesusʼ soon coming, and warnings of Satanʼs snares (he was everywhere!). You can read Augustineʼs works for yourself, they are on the web, and see which of them is not concerned with Satan, virginity, and rooting out Christian heresies of one sort or another. No wonder the Roman Empire fell. Problems were not dealt with as they should, but were instead preached to the people in churches across the empire as being either signs of Jesusʼ soon return, or of Godʼs or Satanʼs wrath. Again, you should consult the recent book by William Ramsay I mentioned above.

As for the rebirth of civilization in Europe, I watched the series Connections on PBS (and read the book) and learned that the revival of learning in Europe (after Christianityʼs thousand year blight of diseased minds that hunted cats because they were “emissaries of Satan,” which led to the abundance of rats and fleas on the rats that spread the great plagues),as I was saying, the revival of learning in Europe coincided with some Christian crusaders taking the city of Seville from the Moslems, a city which contained the largest collection of classical literature that had been preserved since the Fall of the Roman Empire, by Moslem scholars, not Irish priests. This windfall soon reignited scholarship in Europe, Praise The Romans And Greeks who originally wrote such books, and praise those Moslems who preserved such literature essential to getting civilization back on track after a thousand years of Biblical darkness.


Kevin: As to the perceived universality of the Mosaic law, consider that Moses himself appears to have been the offspring of a union later proscribed by the Mosaic law. This alone, apart from the NT, should be sufficient clue that the Mosaic law was intended to be limited in scope.

Ed: If itʼs so “limited in scope” then I suppose Luther and Calvin were idiots to point out that Jesus said, “Not one jot or tittle of the law will pass away until all things have been fulfilled,” and, “whomever teaches this little one to disregard even the least of the law, it would be better for him if a millstone were placed around his neck.” And Paul who wrote, “Do we by this, obviate the law of Moses? No!”

Instead of hemming and hawing about the O.T. only being “limited in scope” please tell me Exactly How Limited. And tell me why youʼre at it how Christian people could NOT read the O.T. and understand that a society Needed to make and obey specific laws to please God and avoid Godʼs wrath or Satanʼs ruin? The question remains WHICH laws can a society of concerned Bible readers ignore, and which should it enforce? Christians have NEVER agreed on that, nor does the Bible (nor the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which “leads us into all truth”) seem capable of leading to any ultimate agreement on such matters, yet laws must be made. Laws against killing for instance. Thatʼs not “limited in scope” is it? What about “killing someoneʼs immortal soul” by the spread of “false doctrine” that “kills souls?” All the original American colonies and nations of Europe at that time had laws against non-Christian words and publications, not just non-Christian acts. Those laws go back as for a thousand years to Constantineʼs edicts against paganism and all Christian sects other than the Catholic church. During those thousand years the Catholic and Protestant churches of Europe grew powerful and wealthy. There was NO religious competition. It had been outlawed for a thousand years. Since the advent of the Age of Reason and democracies (democracies/republics being post “kingship” and hence, post Biblical, mentalities), the Christian churches had not had the power to outlaw rival sects nor rival religions, and so in a mere hundred years, the previous two thousand is being undone, quite quickly, I might add. It took earliest Christianity three hundred years before it gained the clout to outlaw paganism and rival Christian sects. Even then, it took another four hundred to complete the near obliteration (and accommodation) with paganism, and Christianity was rent with further schisms after that time. But in a mere two hundred years, since Deists in Europe first began questioning the Bible, and opened the way for historical scholarship and examination of the Bibleʼs documents, the Christian world is having to react to more different religions and challenges than can be counted. In four hundred more years, If Laws For Religious Tolerance Remain In Place, Christianity today (the phenomenon, not the magazine), will cease to exist, and have been replaced by perhaps 100,000 or more different sects (in the past five years the number of Christian sects have grown, according to the last two printings of Oxfordʼs Christian Encyclopedia, from 20,000 to 30,000!), and a wide variety of alternative religions and non-religions.

Thirty Years War and Protestants Killing Catholics

Ralph: I heard about the Crusades of Christians killing but when I looked it up it was the Catholics who were the crusades. The Protestants were defending themselves. But has there been a time when Protestants have started an attack against the Catholics?
Thirty Years War

Edward: Yes. Iʼm afraid that when you learn history in America itʼs mainly American history, and whitewashed at that. The main events in which Protestants killed Catholics is mainly European history. A lot of killing, back and forth, went on for CENTURIES in England and all of Europe. The Protestants for their part, were convinced that the Pope was the Antichrist, which Luther taught, and as such, the Pope was caricatured as a Devil in Protestant picture-tracts. In fact, Luther also taught and believed that with the “Peasant Revolt” and the increase in lawlessness it brought, that the end of the world was nigh. Both Catholics and Protestants played up each other as “the devil.” And of course it was Luther, to whom the church had granted a vocation as Monk and scholar, who first threw down the theological gauntlet, and would not compromise, and whose inflamed speeches to “kill the revolting peasants,” and to “burn down the Jewʼs homes and synagogues and books and as they flee, grant them no safe passage,” and, who taught that “the Papacy is the Antichrist and must be defeated at all costs!”


The underlying causes of this devastating, general European war were conflicts of religion: Protestant verses Roman Catholic reform, pluralistic tolerance versus arbitrary imposition of faith, Lutheranism and Calvinism and the Protestant Union versus the Catholic League.
- George Childs Kohn, “Thirty Yearsʼ War” (1618-48), Dictionary of Wars, rev. ed.


Herbert Langer in The Thirty Yearsʼ War, says that more than one quarter of Europeʼs population died as a result of those thirty years of slaughter, famine and disease. Ironically, the majority of Europeans who killed each other shared such orthodox Christian beliefs as Jesusʼ deity, the Trinity, and even “creationism.” So you canʼt blame the horrific spectacle of the Thirty Yearsʼ War on modern day scapegoats like atheism, humanism or the theory of evolution. Such a war demonstrates that getting nations to agree on major articles of faith does not ensure peace. Far from it. Some of the most intense rivalries exist between groups whose beliefs broadly resemble one another but differ in subtle respects.
- Skip Church


In 1844 in Philadelphia, the “city of brotherly love,” Protestants besieged Catholic neighborhoods with cannon fire and pistols, and also set houses aflame, because the Catholics had protested the use of the Protestantʼs King James Bible in public schools. Martial law was declared, and it took two thousand federal troops to quell the rioting; eighteen people were killed and scores more were injured.
- Michael Feldberg, The Philadelphia Riots of 1844: A Study of Ethnic Conflicts


A holy war was set off in Brazil when a Pentecostal pastor, opposed to the “image-worship” of the nations 110,000 Catholics, displayed a statue of a black version of the Virgin Mary called Our Lady of Aparecida, and referred to it as “a horrible, disgraceful doll” while kicking and slapping it. Screaming, rock-throwing crowds surrounded the church of the Pentecostal pastor while thousands of Catholics protested by carrying images of the Virgin through the streets.
- J. D. Bell, “Nuts in the News,” The American Rationalist, May/June 1997


A 32-year-old Catholic woman was beaten to death after she refused to enter an evangelical church in northeastern Brazil. She was passing by the Church of the Kingdom of God when two pastors ordered their followers to bring her inside to attend a ceremony. When she refused, the group held her ten-year-old daughter while the pastors dragged her by the hair and beat her in order to “exorcise the devil from her.”
- J. D. Bell, “Nuts in the News,” The American Rationalist, Nov./Dec. 1994


As for the genocide of native Americans perpetrated by PROTESTANTS, along with the enslavement of Africans defended by PROTESTANT denominations in the South (and the Northern denominations did NOT complain except for the Quakers and a few evangelists), Iʼll leave that for another time.


Three Religious Truths

  1. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

  2. Protestants do not recognize the pope as the leader of the Christian faith.

  3. Baptists do not recognize each other in the liquor store.